Article Club: Does anyone really know you?
Hello. Hello. Hello. Hi. Hello.
Speaker 1:This is article club where we pick an article and we talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, baby.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's all we do. And the thing is, we have seen you know, we love to read books. We had a book club. That's how Uh-huh. One of
Speaker 1:our RIP.
Speaker 2:First deepening of our friendship was in book. But everyone's saying there's no one ain't nobody got time to read books these days.
Speaker 1:There's just no time.
Speaker 2:No time.
Speaker 1:There's no time. But to be honest with you, there's no time to read articles either. There's it's like the group chat is blowing up. There's just too much.
Speaker 2:People sharing stuff. I know. You can't keep up. We're inundated.
Speaker 1:That's why I always ask you. Okay. Wait. Before we get into that, can you explain why you are so online on the pulse of the article world? How do you like, what's up with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Don't know if it's a I don't know if it's I, like, I treat it like a currency Or if it's how I tell myself that I'm interesting and relevant is reading always having the finger to the pulse.
Speaker 1:Wait, currency? How so? I'm at a party. I'm going give you a little nugget. Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Okay. I love to be able to point to things in the zeitgeist that people start talking about them. Like, oh, that reminds me of this article I read or this. You know, I feel like nowadays everyone's like, oh, it's an article. And everyone's like, was that really a TikTok that you just watched?
Speaker 1:Right. Totally. Or a podcast.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:But we talked about this. Yeah. Ironically, people are remembering the pods.
Speaker 2:I know. Yeah. They say I think the data the data shows that when you listen, you actually retain less. But thanks for being here.
Speaker 1:But if you read it and then listen
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:Double dip.
Speaker 1:I think is the idea, We'll read it. Maybe we'll even print it out if you're me. And you have a computer
Speaker 2:over I'm on a laptop.
Speaker 1:Take a little highlighter to the situation Uh-huh. And then talk it through. I often go to you when I need a book rec, when I need a podcast rec. I don't really ask you about articles. You just send them to So can
Speaker 2:you Yeah. It's more more of like a force feeding kind of model.
Speaker 1:But I like but I like it. Okay. I have to admit though, I'd say 85% of the time, I read the headline
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:And look at the really cute illustration.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:And then sometimes I click through and there's, like, some sort of paywall or it seems too hard or the beginning or whatever whatever. Or you don't really wanna read it on your phone.
Speaker 2:So Or I give you I then, like, send it. And I'm like, this is why I liked it. And that's Exactly. Probably all you needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then what else am I gonna get? So this is it's nice to sit with something. It's nice to print something out. I printed it out.
Speaker 1:I underlined some stuff.
Speaker 2:When was the last time you printed out an article?
Speaker 1:I cannot tell you. Don't know. When was the last time I printed anything? My IT husband. I'm like, how do I do it?
Speaker 2:We don't even have a printer. I go to the UPS It's
Speaker 1:shocking that I have a printer, but there's no color. So don't even
Speaker 2:Why not? Can't pay?
Speaker 1:I have asked this question. For some reason
Speaker 2:Don't remember the answer. There's no color. Didn't matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. So what are we reading?
Speaker 2:Today, we are reading an article entitled, Does Anyone Really Know You? And this is a article in The New Yorker by I actually, I read this. It's interesting because the graphic that they use in The New Yorker is a woman.
Speaker 1:Mine is in black and white.
Speaker 2:Okay, but it's still, it's a woman. Like the back of a woman's head. But it's written by a man. And so I think that Oh,
Speaker 1:illustration by Joe Z. Norton.
Speaker 2:And I think that this is something, actually, my boyfriend, Maura, and I were talking yesterday about how the men are not all right and how they're not allowed to talk about their feelings. They don't have male friends that they can always go deep with.
Speaker 1:Well, can listen to us.
Speaker 2:That's so true.
Speaker 1:They have Article Club.
Speaker 2:They have Article Club.
Speaker 1:Come on, boys.
Speaker 2:We're here. Come on. This is not just for the lead. But clearly this article, I would guess, is maybe targeted towards women even though it's written by a man who has the dopest job. He's the ideas editor at The New Yorker.
Speaker 2:Excuse me. How do you get that role?
Speaker 1:I would like to just write about ideas. Have read anything else from him? I don't know. We'll have to circle back on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, we'll have to come back. I don't think I'd read I haven't read his most recent article, Could Steampunk Save Us?
Speaker 1:Oh. Maybe.
Speaker 2:A real divergence. Wow. But I like this question because I think a lot of the stuff that we end up talking about with our friends is much more of the emotional stuff. We're all in our 30s, we're all in different stages of life, and going through a bunch of different identity shifts, whether that be sort of hitting the point in our career where it's like, well, what's the next thing that I want? Whether it's becoming a parent, whether it's getting married.
Speaker 2:There's all these sort of big identity moments and big relationship
Speaker 1:moment. Some people are having kids. Some people are moving away. Some people Totally. You know, everybody's doing different stuff.
Speaker 1:And it also feels like post pandemic, we went through this radical shift and then kinda came back to life and, yeah, trying to find their people Yeah. Find their purpose. Yeah. What does that even mean?
Speaker 2:Oh, no. So the key question asking is, does anyone really know you? And so he starts talking about Nacharina now, which have you read? No. I have not read either.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, no. I am on a, you know, classical literature
Speaker 2:I also have not read it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Aforementioned, we have no idea what he's talking about.
Speaker 2:But they basically that's like the key question of one of the protagonists in the in the book is like, can he show himself to this woman, his wife, without her sort of like falling out of love with him or Who he's perfectly happy with. Happy
Speaker 1:marriage. Not He should feel connected.
Speaker 2:Who truly is. And I think this is like a lot of the stuff I think that is coming up a lot around like vulnerability and when you are telling someone about you, stuff about you, does that actually are they going be turned off by that or are they going to is that going to make them want to go deeper with you? And I think I think it's a question that I'm constantly asking myself, does anyone know me? Who do I show people versus who do I not show? Like, sides of myself do people get?
Speaker 2:I had a conversation with one of our friends last year about how people always give me feedback and I'm like a really positive, happy person. And I think for the most part that I am, but I'm like, but that's not the only part of me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They're seeing the magical show.
Speaker 2:Right. And that's what I get positive reinforcement for. So then do I if I show them the parts that aren't that, are they gonna like it?
Speaker 1:Totally. There's a part in here where he basically talks about pot what is that? Toxic positivity? Uh-huh. Things in his life are sort of in shambles.
Speaker 1:Nobody really knows, and he's going to work and sort of smiling and doing the small talk or what have you putting on the show.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. He talks about, especially as a teen. Like, did you feel this as a teen? Like, the Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2:Angsty teen? No one knew you?
Speaker 1:Totally. Right.
Speaker 2:I don't think I felt that as a teen.
Speaker 1:I was gonna ask you. Do you so, you know, everybody has some okay. Maybe you don't. Maybe you're like, I always I know who I am as a teen. Maybe you thrived because you were the mean girl
Speaker 2:when you were a teen. So true.
Speaker 1:What are
Speaker 2:talking about?
Speaker 1:I I don't feel like I, you know, was lost. Nobody knows me. But I remember distinctly thinking about what to say Mhmm. In my head. Like Like before you Right.
Speaker 1:Like now, I'm 35 years old. Yeah. I don't even I don't think before I say anything. And I'm apparently, extroverts think out loud. I don't know if you've
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Been told
Speaker 2:Process externally.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Process externally. In management coaching, we learn about this. And I remember worrying in my head about what I would say to people as it in middle school. So I I have that I have that memory of self consciousness of what I say.
Speaker 1:I don't know. And getting sort of mixed jumbled up in my head about it. Yeah. But I don't remember oh, I don't feel like anybody knows me. I just remember I guess it's just classic social anxiety.
Speaker 1:But how can you connect with people if you have social anxiety?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Totally. And I think they talk a lot about the interesting dynamics of the parent and child in this article of going the author talks about going through his dead mother's belongings and being like, did I really know her at all? And I was just listening to the Anderson Cooper podcast on grief.
Speaker 1:Man, I haven't done it
Speaker 2:yet. Which is I can't
Speaker 1:do yet.
Speaker 2:But it's beautiful. What a doozy. Yeah, I'm here. He talks about going through his dead father, his dead mother, his dead brother's belongings. He was like, my dad was a prolific writer, but I actually discovered this piece that I'd never seen before.
Speaker 2:Just sort of getting into the inner sanctum of those people. Do we know our parents? I think about that a lot.
Speaker 1:Also, desire for people to be known is interesting, right? Like some people, it seems like, have that need to live a life that matters and need people to know about it. And this sense of what am I leaving behind? What traces? What will I be known by?
Speaker 1:What do you do you have that in you? Do feel like Do you feel like you need to be known? I know that's such a
Speaker 2:So I think I used to feel like I want to leave a legacy. I want to have something. And then there was this book that I read. I think it's called four thousand Weeks. And it's like the average lifespan is four thousand weeks, which is nothing.
Speaker 2:And the likelihood that you're going to be remembered past one to two generations is very slim. Like, there are only so many Attila the Huns or so many Napoleons
Speaker 1:Or she's left.
Speaker 2:Or Joan of Arcs, to get our female leaders represented That will be remembered. And so the most impactful thing that you can do is make an impact on the people that are in your immediate life. Because that's really all that you can do. You're probably not going to be remembered.
Speaker 1:So do you feel like that reality makes you adjust your expectations accordingly? Is that slightly disappointing, or do you feel genuinely at peace with the fact that some people will know you and that's how it will go and then you will be forgotten?
Speaker 2:I think I've convinced myself that capitalism is telling me that I need to be remembered for, you know, the money I made or the company I started or the whatever. That I mean, I still I struggle with it every day. Because I think that not everyone else still feels like everyone else has been told we need to be remembered.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we need to be known for these things.
Speaker 1:Okay. Do you feel like people really know you today, the people around you? Or who really knows?
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, to answer that, I will say there was this have you read the book All Fours by Miranda July? It, like, it entered the zeitgeist this summer. She was, like, this performance artist, she wrote this book. It's been heralded as, like, menopause book positivity.
Speaker 2:Okay. But it's sort of this crazy story of this woman that goes on a trip and ends up having this salacious affair with this younger man at a hotel that's 30 miles from her home. There's the beginning of this book, there's this part that absolutely gutted me when she's talking about her husband, basically that her husband doesn't actually know her and that she's slowly revealing herself to him over time in a way that's tolerable for him, which is it's gutting. And she said, When we're both ready, would reveal my whole self to Harris. This would be like presenting a sweater knitted in secret.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, he would say. How did you find time to do this? Just here and there, wherever I could, sometimes even with you right there beside me. And then the husband's like, I didn't even know you could knit. And it's sort of this idea of, Oh yeah, I have been slowly showing this part of you to myself over time, only to reveal the big thing and you'd be like, oh, don't who is this person?
Speaker 2:And not have it be receivable. Think it's like all of our biggest fear is that when we show someone the true self, we won't be fully loved.
Speaker 1:And or they they don't even wanna receive it.
Speaker 2:Right. He
Speaker 1:talks about in this article. Like, please go back. I wanna see all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Right. At the end when he, like, brings a full circle in Anna Karenina. She's like, ugh. I don't really like this. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So to your question, though, do I feel fully known? I think there are people who know full parts of me, but I don't think that I fully even know myself. What about you?
Speaker 1:Well, do you think that's what it comes down to? How could anyone know you if you don't feel like you fully know yourself? Also, does anyone really know themselves? Like, how do you make sense of the Right. Synapses that are firing in your brain all the time, the voice in your head?
Speaker 1:Nobody's gonna nobody can hear those things. I think it all depends on what knowing mean. It's like shades of knowing. Like, no one is going to drink a secret potion and be in your body and in your brain and know you. And maybe that's fa maybe that's not what knowing means.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, in the article, says, like, what exactly is there to know? And who are you anyway?
Speaker 1:And it's like, you know, if you know everything about a person on the outside, cool. Google knows you.
Speaker 2:He talks about, right? Oh, yeah. Which is like that book
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're
Speaker 2:CV Everybody Lies, where it's like if you ask people questions even in an anonymous survey See, is why
Speaker 1:I ask for the book recommendation.
Speaker 2:He talks about how if you ask people even questions in anonymous survey, people still lie because they know someone's looking at it. So the only place where people are truly honest is in their Google search data. And he's like, ugh, I could have predicted that Trump was gonna get elected. I could have predicted all these things because of what people were searching on Google.
Speaker 1:Fascinating.
Speaker 2:But who do you tell all those things to?
Speaker 1:I don't know. Everybody's gonna have a different definition of what it means to know somebody.
Speaker 2:And to be known.
Speaker 1:And I think for me, it's like intimacy and knowing are very interconnect. And it's more of an energy and an understanding. You know, I get it. Energy or Than a this person knows my every thought. I just I feel I don't know.
Speaker 1:I feel like they understand where I'm coming from. And I don't need to know that they know every detail about me. I don't need to know that, you know, I would share a deep, dark secret. One thing I have been thinking about post reading this article are the sort of like identity stories that I tell the world. Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:And which of those I start to believe. Like, do you have your canned this is who I da da da da da. I go, I'm a well adjusted middle child. I have literally have one liners for, you know, who I am.
Speaker 2:Yes. Totally.
Speaker 1:You moved here. I moved to San Francisco. Oh, and there's ones that actually impact your behavior negatively when you're a kid. For some reason, got in my head. I was bad at math.
Speaker 1:I was not bad at math.
Speaker 2:I had
Speaker 1:a bad math quiz.
Speaker 2:I still have bad in my head.
Speaker 1:And then it's like, oh, I'm Carly, and I'm bad at math. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then you lo and behold, your career is in a creative pursuit.
Speaker 1:Sure. And, you you know, maybe the stories are the stories are based on something.
Speaker 2:But that's what mean. It's like, you tell yourself this story, and so it it
Speaker 1:actually Exactly. And then it unfolds
Speaker 2:your future.
Speaker 1:And then it unfolds that way. So do you really know yourself? How much are yourself have you, like, crafted yourself? Like, much are you even shielding the real you from yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think I'm taking a much maybe I'm taking a squishier take than you are of like no one really no one knows me for sure. It's sort of like, of course, no one knows every detail. But there are people who I feel like know me well and through which I want to hold their hand and go through life because there's an understanding there. There's some intuitive I don't know. I do feel like people see me at my core.
Speaker 1:And I feel like you're one of those people. I feel like my husband is one of those people.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank God.
Speaker 1:And that's fine for me. I don't think I have the I I don't get into sort of like a depth of despair around nobody will really unlock what's inside.
Speaker 2:I hadn't really asked myself this question even after reading the article until last night only because I'd asked my boyfriend, who knows him best, and I called his mom I know. Interestingly. Wow. And I then he asked me, and I said, I don't really know if anyone, like, fully knows me, which is very ironic because I have tattooed on my inner arm. Wait.
Speaker 1:Can I just say she has a tattoo? Know thyself inner arm. Can I just say, you said fully no? And it you for him, it was who knows you best.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Mom? I think yeah. Think design Which different than who fully Yeah. Does anyone I it's who knows you best.
Speaker 2:Know you. And I think he said I think or, like, probably the closest one he said was probably my mom. Closest. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So the I mean, there's just no I don't think he would say my mom likes me knows To
Speaker 2:the nth degree.
Speaker 1:To the nth degree. You know?
Speaker 2:And the article talks about asking this question at a dinner party, which honestly, I love a good whip around. And this would be a good one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it would.
Speaker 2:It would be a really good one.
Speaker 1:Maybe we should use every article as a whip around.
Speaker 2:I like And then
Speaker 1:we can report back or
Speaker 2:something. I like them. The last whip around we did with a big group was if you could know anything about the future, what would you want? And you and you could fix it.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. That was not my I love these. Like, hey, let's all let's I I wanna hear from everybody. I wanna build on instead of, know, jumble of conversation. That is not the one.
Speaker 1:Everybody's like, I want to know what terminal illness is going to kill my child. I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 2:That was a real doozy.
Speaker 1:That was tough.
Speaker 2:But this would be a whip around. So I hadn't thought about it until I asked him last night, then he asked me. But he talks about doing this at a dinner party and people feeling like it's all a Venn diagram. Like the likelihood that your circle fully overlaps with another circle is impossible. Like that.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:And so it's like who's the closest You're you and other people over Because again, I think part of being human is evolving. So you're never going to fully know yourself because it's always like a moving target.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:So we were talking about this a little earlier, when you are surprised by yourself I know. And how we feel about that. Oftentimes when someone tells me something that they've observed about me, it's often not, I would say, positive. Although sometimes it is, and that's really nice. When it's something that maybe I didn't acknowledge, like my behavior was jealous or I was superficial in something, I sort of feel like
Speaker 1:Who's telling you you're being superficial? I'm a fight them.
Speaker 2:I don't know. But I sort of feel like I get caught. I'm like, oh, I got caught with my hand in the candy jar. And I'm like, ugh. You got me.
Speaker 1:Your first reaction is like, oh, that's you believe them.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Whereas, I mean, you know, I'm oohing and ahhing over here. Because even the idea of evolving as a person, I'm like, no. I've always been me.
Speaker 2:I'm perfect. It's not that I'm perfect.
Speaker 1:That's not it. But then I know I'm very decisive. I like to say I'm immune to peer pressure. A narrative I tell myself.
Speaker 2:And these some of the things that you are true to your knowing yourself.
Speaker 1:At least that I think. And then when somebody comes out and has some feedback that I didn't anticipate, it gets me. And my first reaction is not, oh, you're right. Oh, my gosh. Let me reflect on that.
Speaker 1:My first reaction is defensive. So I think it's a superpower that you I don't know.
Speaker 2:He talks in the article too about and we touched this a little bit with Google, but knowing facts about someone doesn't mean they know you. So I think you'd probably be more warm to something if it came from me Of course. Versus when a coffee shop being like, oh, that was a that behavior. And you're like, well, you don't even
Speaker 1:know me. Speaking of people at coffee shops, this another thing that's coming up for me in this article, and this happened to me last night, people always think that I look like someone they know. Or that I remind them of someone they know.
Speaker 2:That never happens
Speaker 1:to Literally last night oh, it happens to me every time I go out. So much so that I have a canned response for it. And last night, I was like, and you look exactly like my best friend. Oh, shit. And I always say, she must be great.
Speaker 1:So I don't know. There's a familiarity thing there. And I don't know what that is.
Speaker 2:He talks about in the article how people also some of how some of knowing you is also just projecting some of their own stuff, but also when they knew you onto you. So like when people see you out in the wild, and they're like, oh, you remind me so much of my best friend. Then you're like, well, I'm not that person.
Speaker 1:I know. You don't
Speaker 2:know me.
Speaker 1:It's just a weird and then I think, okay, what energy who am I that is feeling generic by so many other people? Oh, it's like the flat bridge of my nose. It's like Mr. Potato Head. You could put my face on a lot of different faces or something.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Speaking of sort of the knowing you from other parts of life, what do you feel like do you feel like your family knows you, or what do you feel like they they think they know about you?
Speaker 1:By family. Who is telling me, origin family? Have you heard this? No. There's origin family, and there's when you're talking about, like, your family of origin Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:You know, where you came from. Yeah. And I have two kids and a husband, which is, like, wild to say out loud. I well, first of all, let's start with kids. They'll never know me.
Speaker 1:Like, I am, like, wiping butts. Like, I love these crazy little kiddos. But it's just all hands on deck when there are these little kids. They're never gonna have any idea. It does feel like every other part of your life, you're constantly getting credit and feedback for that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:And that sort of builds into the ident there's this reciprocity, and that just doesn't happen with little kids. And then I think if you're mom to them, that's who you are. Maybe they'll know what kind of mom I am. But I don't know. They don't know me at all, which is crazy.
Speaker 2:It's funny that my boyfriend could say that his mom knows him best, but, like, I I'm sure his mom wouldn't say that. Yeah. I mean, maybe she would. Just I'll have to
Speaker 1:ask her. Inherently, the dynamic.
Speaker 2:Can that go two ways? Like
Speaker 1:Yes. And when I was pregnant with my second, I felt so terrible. I felt like I was being a horrible mom to my first. I was like, I have to lie down parenting. Like, this is I whatever.
Speaker 1:And I was like, she probably thinks I'm lazy, boring, whatever. You know? And of course, they forget and Right. It was a was a But the kid thing is interesting. Do I ever really need them to know me as a person?
Speaker 1:I would love that. Maybe there's sprinkles of that. We'll see. I do feel like my husband knows me, and I'm very lucky that he he knows what he married. And I don't think he understands it always.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. So that's like a different thing. Nothing really surprises him because he's like very clear, think, on who I am. But like, why I must be that way is like a whole other thing. And then family.
Speaker 1:I'm curious how this is in your family. I'm the middle of three girls. I, like, forever will be a second boy. I was always the the one who moved away, the one who did these creative things, yada yada yada. And also the one who always loses shit.
Speaker 1:The one, you know, like, kind of a mess. And then, like, kind of like whatever within the family. When I tell other people that they're like, you're the most type a organized no. But within that context, you're just always gonna be that thing.
Speaker 2:Right. Kind of like how I see can't get out of it.
Speaker 1:You oh, ever. Yeah. Which is you know what? I'd like that's fine with me. Also, there's also really good things they think.
Speaker 1:Like, I'm a mediator, But I also think about running into high school friends. It's like your high school friends who are like, how's your high school boyfriend doing? And you're I haven't seen that person in twenty years. You just only know them in the con.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I saw one of my high school friends over Thanksgiving. And I was asking her because she still lives in Kentucky. And so I think which is where I'm from. And part of her is sort of like crystallized in amber in my mind.
Speaker 2:Or amber, not ember.
Speaker 1:Crystalized in ember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just saying ember with a British accent.
Speaker 1:Amber.
Speaker 2:And I was asking her about girls we went to high school with because they all live there. I just assumed that but doesn't of them, she doesn't She's like, don't know.
Speaker 1:Yes, totally. Even asking about those people, it's like but to be fair, they do still live there.
Speaker 2:So that's reasonable. But she doesn't really know her.
Speaker 1:Raisinable.
Speaker 2:I like when he's talking in the article about the funeral of his grandmother and how the three sons gave eulogies. All of them and I wonder if they coordinated it. But all of them knew her in a different way. When you think about, do you all know your mom and your one of three sisters? How the three of you would each also describe different ways.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And my mom
Speaker 2:And which of those Yeah. Would feel most true to
Speaker 1:her? And the three of us are so different, and my mom is a total chameleon to based on what people need. Yeah. I thought that was pretty beautiful. I could I couldn't tell if he critic criticizing it.
Speaker 1:I think he appreciated that that was sort of, like, the best you can do if to
Speaker 2:know somebody. It's to show different
Speaker 1:To show different, like sides of the context and the sibling and the whatever. Okay. Wait. So we didn't answer let's roll it back. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Family.
Speaker 2:My one on my side.
Speaker 1:Yeah. When you said nobody really
Speaker 2:knows me. Nobody really knows me. And perhaps myself. But they
Speaker 1:I'm like, I know you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I'm like, no, you I'm so good. And then it's like, is that an ego thing? Me being like, no one really knows me is because there's so much to me. Or is it is it, like, is it by choice or is it by
Speaker 1:No. I think it's just honest. Yeah. Like, I agree with you in totality. Like, I think that's the honest answer.
Speaker 1:Okay. So let's rephrase to who knows you best.
Speaker 2:I think I would say my mom too, maybe. Then
Speaker 1:there's Your mom knows me best too. She's so amazing.
Speaker 2:But then there's parts of me that she definitely doesn't know about That I either like have chosen not to tell her or because she doesn't see me regularly. Just make it impossible for her to fully know. With especially like extended family, when I think about my brother, I do think you get a little bit trapped in what our dynamics were as children. Of course. Which weren't bad at all, but it's what's comfortable.
Speaker 2:So then you sort of all revert back to, you know, I wish you could see me. And I honestly wish I could see him. He's a doctor. And I think about operating, I just actually I think of him as much more submissive to me and our siblings. And so when I think about him
Speaker 1:Even though he's older.
Speaker 2:Even though
Speaker 1:he's older.
Speaker 2:And so when I think about him in an operating room being in charge of 10 different nurses and an anesthesiologist and blah, blah, blah doing that, and I'm like, oh, wow. I can picture it, but I can't really actually feel that. I don't actually know what it would feel like to watch him. And you would just don't get to see each other like, observe each other in day to day life.
Speaker 1:It is interesting that if you're always changing as a person, if people are always being thrown different things, yeah, is the proximity important? Like, does anyone know you who's away? Yeah. And what does away mean? That's why you can never move.
Speaker 2:That's why I think about friendship proximity is actually essential.
Speaker 1:I know. Especially in in this world of we all thought everything could be remote all the time. I've really realized that I that's that's not it for me. I've gotta be around the people or spend chunks.
Speaker 2:I was watching the sex lives of college girls. Uh-huh. That's all that's in it. And one of the, like, four lead characters is move like, you know, she's clearly just leaving the show, but she's moving Uh-huh. Transferring schools to go to MIT.
Speaker 2:She's like, I don't want you to forget me. And they're like, we'll never forget you. We'll always be there. And I was literally thinking watching the
Speaker 1:show No, no, you'll be forgotten, honey.
Speaker 2:It will not be
Speaker 1:the It's over. It's sort of sad.
Speaker 2:So then maybe who knows me best changes. In college, I would have said my best friend in college knew me best. But now she definitely doesn't.
Speaker 1:That's a whole other thing. Different chapters of knowing.
Speaker 2:And, like, the the loss of that. And do they still think that they know you best, or how do you evolve with that?
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay. So here's a question. So that friend or another friend that you were very, very close with. Sure.
Speaker 1:Maybe let's do that one college friend. When you think of her in your is it a feeling in your like, do you have a feeling in your body? Do you see her face? Think of her right now. What is it?
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Is it like her voice?
Speaker 2:No. It's more of like an emotional feeling of like I guess I see her face, but I also think about longing and mourning at the same time. Mhmm. I miss that closeness. And I'm also sad that we're not as close anymore even though we are still really close.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah. I mean, college is a special is a is especially tough to like, it was if we could all go now and be in a commune
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:Be able to knock on
Speaker 2:somebody's door. We can't recreate
Speaker 1:a But that's a whole,
Speaker 2:yeah, that's an intimate Maybe also part of the the grieving of being so is is like, actually, she knew me so well then, and no one no one probably probably in this exact moment, I don't feel like anyone is around me as much as she was in that time of life. And so no one knows me as well in this time, phase of
Speaker 1:Oh, you know what I was going to do? Something toxically positive. I was going be like, but then there's a new phase and da da da da da. And it's like, no, that fucking sucks. That sucks.
Speaker 2:It's so true. He talks in the article about transference, like when we superimpose someone that we knew onto someone else.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:And I think maybe we're always constantly craving like who's going to fill that void? And maybe it's your husband. Maybe at some point it is your kids. Like I think about my friends whose moms didn't work. I think actually they really wanted to be known to
Speaker 2:know their Yeah. I
Speaker 1:have had that experience with moving in the last couple of years and finding new sort of communities. I find myself talking about my best friends to those people. And I don't know what that is. I don't know if I'm, like, be like this Or wanting them to be known or like a way for them to get to know me. I talk about Lizzie all the time.
Speaker 1:So like, people like, oh, it's that Lizzie who's coming to visit. And it's sort of making it feel more like home. It's like speak them into existence. Sort of a weird thing. Okay.
Speaker 1:I have a total pivot.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Hit us.
Speaker 1:When it's really nice to be unknown. So classic example, you're at a wedding. You're a significant other. No one knows you. It's in a baller place.
Speaker 1:And you're just like, let's go. Yes. Not that I've done this in forever and a day. Somebody invite me to your wedding, and I'll be anonymous. It's like, you got no one to please.
Speaker 1:You got no mask to put on. My sisters and I were talking about this a little bit, actually. My mom has all these, you know, fabulous friends. They were having a little soiree. And I was like, I'll go, you know, and just chatting people up.
Speaker 1:And there's something about of course, I'm not anonymous. I'm her daughter. They know her.
Speaker 2:But like need to try on different things.
Speaker 1:Yes. And just let's see where this goes. And some that's sort of the zest of life, you
Speaker 2:know Yes.
Speaker 1:For me. You know, there's plenty of times I have no interest in zest. I just wanna be on the couch.
Speaker 2:Right. Oh, but I have one of my one of my friends here loves she she could be very introverted in boobs. I remember we were at a party at a friend's apartment, and the apartment below was, like, Gen Z people also throwing a party. And she went down there and was gone for like two hours.
Speaker 1:So that's that is way cooler than me.
Speaker 2:But you would do that. You would like go down and and then all of sudden like you're like,
Speaker 1:oh yeah. Was talking about
Speaker 2:art about these people. You're trying on a different identity.
Speaker 1:I'm checking out at the grocery store and what's going I don't know. There's something about poking into people's lives. I don't know what that is about being anonymous or them knowing me or not knowing me. Or maybe, you know, there is some ego kick in that too. Like, can I amuse somebody?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Can I like a pop of connection or something? And you can't do that if somebody knows you.
Speaker 2:Are you being your true self? Or are you actually trying on different identities?
Speaker 1:I think trying things on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It was like me on first dates.
Speaker 1:Yes. Okay. Let's talk about this. Mhmm. Allison used to lie on first dates.
Speaker 2:Fat lies. Weren't I mean, they were all lies that were close enough. Fat that they were Substantive lies. Yes. With lots of details.
Speaker 2:But that could have been true. They were my ghost ships of things that maybe I wanted to be a part of myself. Okay.
Speaker 1:So we need to hear the core lie.
Speaker 2:So one of the was two of the core lies were actually both about intellectual pursuits. One was that I was a College Jeopardy! Finalist. To my credit, I did not claim that I won, just that I was a finalist. But I had this whole elaborate lie about I lost to a girl from Cal Poly.
Speaker 2:I told this lie, in jobs.
Speaker 1:In interviews?
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, in my first job after business school, not in interviews. My first job after business school, we had to do a fun fact.
Speaker 1:To co worker.
Speaker 2:And I lied about one of these. I did my Jeopardy! Lie. And then the other one was that I had written a college thesis, which I didn't. And I could tell you, described exactly what the thesis was about.
Speaker 2:Because it is. If I had to have had written a thesis, it's what that would have been about.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what was that about? Was that I don't know. Think it was Something similar.
Speaker 2:Trying on identities. They sell out.
Speaker 2:Liked
Speaker 2:those
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 2:liked those parts myself. There are parts that I can never do now. Like, I can't be on College Jeopardy now.
Speaker 1:Okay. I have one follow-up question before we keep going. Why the lot like, the like, that's not it's not a shocking lie. Right. Neither of them.
Speaker 2:Right. They're believable. That's why. Because that you they have to be close enough that people aren't gonna question it too much. Like, with the Jeopardy!
Speaker 2:People like, oh my gosh. Can I
Speaker 1:see the clip? And I'd like Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, it's probably on YouTube somewhere. I've never really looked for it.
Speaker 1:Okay. No wonder no one fucking knows you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm lying to them.
Speaker 1:No one really knows me. I'm like, Jeopardy!
Speaker 2:But then I think the question is like, do we want to be fully known?
Speaker 1:That's exactly right. And I walk into a wedding where no one knows me. I have zero intention of anyone fully knowing me. Right. I'm just trying to like
Speaker 2:Have a good time.
Speaker 1:Have a good life. Have a good time. Make some connect have a good life. I don't know. Have fun.
Speaker 1:Like, have a little fun without having to put on the math. And then, you know, and then there's always the moment where it's like, oh, well, this is so and so. And here's how that and then you're like, no. No. No.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's not
Speaker 2:really me. It's not me. This is the ASMR
Speaker 1:portion. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Guess this is the question of, if I want to be fully known or not, and if not, who am I saving that for? Am I saving it for myself?
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:Am I saving it for am I saving it for a rainy day, like for when I really need to pull out all the stops or to preserve some intimacy that I can slowly reveal over time?
Speaker 1:Okay. But do you so do you feel like there's tangible things you're actively withholding?
Speaker 2:No. But, I mean, in relationships, I think there's some types
Speaker 1:Because you're talking about it as if it's a choice. Yeah. You're like, am I ready
Speaker 2:to reveal subconscious.
Speaker 1:Whereas
Speaker 2:Unconscious choice.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:There are moments where I am entirely myself with people that I feel like know me very well. Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:But I Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Don't feel like I could say unequivocally that I'm a % myself all the time with people I know.
Speaker 1:No. Of course not, though.
Speaker 2:So then how can I know you?
Speaker 1:Here's what I think. I think you have a higher standard than I do for this, like, knowingness thing.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Because 90% of the people I know, I'm not complete like, not on purpose. You're not completely yourself, but you're stressed. Something's happening. Or you're
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I don't know. You're trying to coordinate something with them or, like, you're you're trying to support their feelings. Or it's, like, not always by you being known in the moment.
Speaker 2:So true.
Speaker 1:Right? Or, like, ever.
Speaker 2:It's rarely about that.
Speaker 1:It's rarely about that. And if it is, then you're not going to that person.
Speaker 2:That's very true. Is it just is it more of just, like, feeling like people understand your essence? Like, is it actually similar than I'm making it?
Speaker 1:Maybe. I think the way like, there's no right or wrong there's no right or wrong. I I don't want you to not feel known. Yeah. I don't or, like, alone in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't feel I don't feel alone in it.
Speaker 1:I think you're making more complex. I just think you're being more honest. Yeah. Like and you have a high bar for what that might mean being known. But I love an essence.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, really knowing an essence I don't know. The people who've spent lots of time with you who just, like, know at the core who you are is just nice. And, like, yeah, things might change. You might do things.
Speaker 1:It's like, whatever. Things can evolve, but at the core that and that core can also
Speaker 2:Do you think that that different cohorts of your life would that you feel like know you actually know different people?
Speaker 1:I don't feel like they know different people, but I think the way I was was, like, brutal in certain contexts before I I had to, like, live my life to, like, become more like, wise is a stupid word. Like, oh, I'm so wise. But like
Speaker 2:Grown up or mature.
Speaker 1:Grown up. Like, yes. I think I I've always think I know what the right thing is. Like, I always you know? And I used to I used to be pretty brutal about like, no.
Speaker 1:It's this. Do it. Yeah. With without, like, not as open minded. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And I also feel like I I always have been someone who projects how I'm going to feel on somebody else's choices. Right? Like, oh, don't you want to go do this? Wouldn't you stand up for yourself in this situation or whatever? And I've really had to like, no, no.
Speaker 1:That's what you would do. That's not the right thing for everyone. That's in my mind, it's like, no. But I'm helping them to
Speaker 2:Right. Totally.
Speaker 1:Go, go, go or whatever. I think people in previous chapters, they probably got that same oomph. If I was looking back, it would be so cringe. No, take a second. Actually don't know.
Speaker 1:Listen. I don't know. Maybe people still feel away.
Speaker 2:You ever feel like when you have revealed parts of yourself or that you regretted it? In the article, talks about Lemon in Anna Karenina. Right. Right. It's Put it
Speaker 1:all back.
Speaker 2:She's like, No.
Speaker 1:But I
Speaker 2:Why did you give them to me? I don't want these.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But also, I'm a weird with regret. I'm one of those like, oh, I don't have any regrets person. Yeah. Which I think is also probably a cop.
Speaker 1:But like, of course, I have done things I wish I didn't do. But I do feel like I've learned from things. And also, let's just label right now what a huge massive fucking privilege that all comes with. I'm in a body and have a face, a person who's able able to go through the world and be like, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think I know you. And sure. Sure. And go shoot for the stars and blah blah blah. I've never had to hide, like, my outward I've never had to live up to that.
Speaker 1:Yes, I've been the only woman in a room ever. But I don't know. I felt like I always had everything I needed to succeed. I felt like it was always Mhmm. The cards were not stacked against me to start.
Speaker 2:I think we have one friend who sometimes feels that they overshare. And then they want to put the genie back in the bottle or the toothpaste back in the tube kind of thing. Think it's a question of what's the difference between insecurity and being known? And maybe the more you know yourself, the less insecure you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that person's gonna think I'm an idiot for saying that. But at the end of the day, Okay. I'm just not a ruminator. I'm future facing person.
Speaker 1:It's like, what's the next thing? And I cannot live a conflict zone. I will go and address it so that my future clear. What about you? Do you feel like?
Speaker 2:Less and less in the as an adult. I think as I as I feel more known by myself than I
Speaker 1:But you used to.
Speaker 2:I never was, like, wringing my hands over a conversation. Yes. Most of the a conversation is over. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2:There are, like unless a person tells me that there's something that's left over that upsets me. I'm not I'm not, like, blinking about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I remember, like, in high school, that feeling that pit in your stomach when, like, you said something sassy, and it got back to the person or some I learned enough times how fucked up that feel. It feels so shitty. Don't think I don't think I've regretted opening up. Should we Let's.
Speaker 1:Let's.
Speaker 2:Let's. Yeah. Okay. Move to the the closing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2:So The grand finale.
Speaker 1:At the end of our article club, which is what this is called and all about. Don't you forget it. We're going talk about what's blowing up the group thread. Like, what's the hot goss? What's going on?
Speaker 1:Could be anything under the sun. And I do have to say, there are multiple group threads. There's a whole moms thing happening. There's the core. There's all these things.
Speaker 1:So can be any of the group threads. I don't know. Something that's bubbling. What's hopping off on yours?
Speaker 2:What's hopping on my group thread? This is going to sound weird. But one thing that there was a lot of conversation about because we're all getting older, we're all I feel like in the last year, we're all sort of really feeling our bodies. Ugh, yes. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2:And I feel too young to be feeling my body. But really working the fitness and the strength training and
Speaker 1:That muscle mastery.
Speaker 2:And also thinking about it for my mom, who's getting older. And so there's been a lot of discussion group chat about weighted vests
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:For walking.
Speaker 1:Rucking and stuff.
Speaker 2:I don't know about rucking.
Speaker 1:Rucking is when you put weights in your backpack and you walk like, nine miles.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Literally
Speaker 1:okay. I can They kinda
Speaker 2:look like bulletproof vests.
Speaker 1:I know. I literally asked for a ruck pack, like, from Charlie for Christmas.
Speaker 2:There we go. I didn't even know.
Speaker 1:We didn't even know that we were
Speaker 2:on Christmas.
Speaker 1:All supposed to be rucking.
Speaker 2:Like, if you don't have time to hit the Yeah.
Speaker 1:The weights. I like walking anyway, so why not just add a couple
Speaker 2:A few LBs.
Speaker 1:Add a few LBs on it.
Speaker 2:Okay. So wrecking. Yeah. I didn't even know that that's what's called. Have a friend who wore one.
Speaker 2:She only walks in New York. And she's like, it's black. And I realized I basically look like a suicide bomber,
Speaker 1:walking around New it's not good. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's Not a good one.
Speaker 1:They're big. That's why the vest is kind of nice. But do you really want to put on the vest? Right. I don't know.
Speaker 1:TBD. Anyone listening out there who has a recommendation for how
Speaker 2:A recommendation.
Speaker 1:So recommend oh my god. She's so good. I will say at the end of the day, we went on the rock site thing. And they're like $300 backpacks that you put shit in. And I was like, I'll just start with my backpack.
Speaker 1:Okay. But maybe that's bags. It doesn't have the ergonomic straps. Yada yada.
Speaker 2:Okay. What's blowing up in your group chat?
Speaker 1:Okay. There's been one thing that just has continued to recur in in a few threads. It's basically about how husbands or long term boyfriends, partners, usually the male partner, turns into a horny dork. Have you seen this SNL sketch?
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes. It's basically like Do
Speaker 2:want get us impersonation?
Speaker 1:No. Can't do it like our friend Ali can do it. Dakota Johnson was in it. And it's like, hello, mama. It's like, come on.
Speaker 1:Come to mama. Like when you get out of the shower or whatever. And everyone I'm telling ladies universally across the world maybe this is happening to the men too. I don't know. But the partner turning into the horny dork, it's like, let me want you.
Speaker 2:Like, oh, la la.
Speaker 1:Come here. It's like, oh my god. I can't do it. So anyway, everybody's passing around their horny dork husbands, boyfriends Like, you'll never believe you came home.
Speaker 2:A horny dork. Wow. I I I took my boyfriend to meet my whole family. And he refused to have sex with me the whole time that we were home because he was basically like, your parents are going to He's like, Ali Lee, your parents are going to hear us having sex. He's an amazing accent.
Speaker 2:And I was like, no, they're not. Like, we've got, like, double layered door. They're asleep. No one's gonna hear. And he wouldn't have sex with me.
Speaker 2:And I literally felt like I was Okay. So what were you doing?
Speaker 1:What was your dork move?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. Did there was definitely some shoulder Oh, wow. Then at one point, we were in the shower, and he was just like, I feel like I am having to strain you. He was just like, stop it. He like, feel like I have
Speaker 1:to say no I am Okay. So nothing was successful. You have no
Speaker 3:advice that the dorks out there.
Speaker 2:No. Man, no moves to dorks.
Speaker 1:It's tough out there. It's just
Speaker 2:What's your advice? What what would you like
Speaker 1:if you'd like them to stand anymore? Advice give me some space to want you,
Speaker 2:please. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You know? Mhmm. Like, let me change.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Let me change.
Speaker 1:Let me change. That's the advice. Let me change and, like, make a Callan bite. I know. It's unsexy, but that's my advice.
Speaker 2:Has that worked for anyone?
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know. We have to find out. We have to see what the listeners think. Okay. But horny dorks, if you're if you're if you're working with a horny dork, I see And
Speaker 2:then how to gain muscle mass
Speaker 1:if you want. And then rocking. Rucking is a really good one because
Speaker 2:that's Attacking.
Speaker 1:Totally in the zeitgeist right now. Yeah. Okay. Keep us posted. Alright.
Speaker 1:Well, does anyone know you?
Speaker 2:Does anyone know me? Oh, anyone know me? It's a circle back.
Speaker 1:It's an exit. It's an outro. Alright.
Speaker 2:Well know you.
Speaker 1:Join us next time when Alison curates a perfectal, perfectal,
Speaker 2:perfectal article.
Speaker 1:A article to talk Alright.
Speaker 2:Thanks. Bye.
Speaker 1:Bye.
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